and Ada Thompson Professor of Biblical Studies at Asbury Theological Seminary in Kentucky. These are two red flags which will need some level of caution in establishing the cause of the condition improving. Well she couldn't walk. This one is obviously ludicrous, but I think undermines the theists claims quite a lot. This is trying to have your cake and eat it too. Thus we will more often hear from the healing crowd. And in each case, it's a witness to God's Glory where God gives grace to overcome in different kinds of situations. That we all will be ultimately healed if we have trust in Jesus because we'll be with him forever. So we interviewed Antoinette Malumbay. Yes, I'll look for these mundane explanations first before jumping to agency, because those are the most common explanations of extraordinary claims. Then a decade or so later, a replication study by Dr. William S. Harris and colleagues was published in the Archives of Internal Medicine. Were the results similar? This was a gold standard study of the effects of intercessory prayer on almost a thousand consecutively admitted coronary patients. Has it been confirmed? It's here for completeness, even though there isn't much more we can say. #unbelievable Further, the world is complex and any given effect can have many different possible causes, especially if we are talking about biological systems. randomized controlled studies, well considered controls, etc) to avoid these confounders. It isn't irrational to demand a higher-than-average standard for extraordinary claims, no matter what. Craig Keener at around 37:00 in the Unbelievable? Dr. Craig Keener holds the F.M. What do atheists think of Barbara Snyder, who was healed of all her symptoms and all her illness to the point where 31 years later she's completely healthy? They dont want you to see this Big Tech does its best to limit what news you see. She actually had to have a breathing tube because even her diaphragm didn't work on its own. Synder's miraculous healing, which unfolded more than 30 years ago, was apparently so shocking that even her doctors have written about her seemingly impossible medical turnaround. Keener: what is specific about that data that suggests it isn't just a fluke you know one of those one in a million things that just happens sometimes yeah anomalies occur so it's important to look for an accumulation of anomalies so you don't just have what could be a coincidence. for her new role. We know exactly how skeletal muscle tissue is developed, and it takes weeks to months. So the first part of the answer is sort of true but trivial and also not what they've been doing but then the second part contradicts that by saying "just assume that it's true anyway and start praying for people." You don't mix, say, corrected and uncorrected measurements in a timeline unless you provide both at every time point you have. The Association of American Universities (AAU), Fostering and Protecting Free Speech on Campus, Renew Investments in Vital Scientific Infrastructure, AAU Universities Battle the Opioid Crisis, Progress Toward Achieving Systemic Change, The Strategic Role of a National Organization. A woman name Barbara Cummiskey Snyder was on the verge of death from MS that she had had for over 15 years. She is the former president of Case Western Reserve University. I could show you cases of arms growing back theoretically speaking and you would not believe it you would come up with natural explanations. He has served in a variety of teaching and leadership roles, including a term as president of the Evangelical Theological Society in 2015. Craig Keener: Yes. "You just wonder how legitimate are these miracle claims in the 21st century?" He encountered scores of healings and other claims of the miraculous along the way, but there was one case in particular that truly blew his mind: the case of Barbara Snyder. Thu 03 February 2022 University (CWRU) in July 2007, will join the Association of American Universities (AAU) by the A nice illustration of Even Miracles Take A Little Time-the miracle. It just really annoys me this is always conflated. This article wasoriginally published on Pure Flix Insider. Likewise, Americans are quite prone to believing in the potential occurrence of miracles. I mean that would almost qualify as a resurrection. I'm your host, Scott Rae, Dean of Faculty and Professor of Christian Ethics at Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. People casually talk about God helping to find their car keys or help their sportsing team win, which are not miraculous but imply the intervention of the agent and thus fall under the same umbrella. Now, Strobel, whose personal story was told through the Pure Flix feature film, book anddocumentarytitled The Case for Christ, has released The Case for Miracles, a new investigative book that relies on facts, interviews, and studies to further explore spiritual matters. In particular, it includes an interview with Barbara Snyder, who was instantaneously healed from advanced multiple sclerosis, as also attested by her two physicians. I wear glasses. In the comment thread of my response, Caleb J writes. So it seems to me you can't discount it all. Scott Rae: Here, here. Really? I asked. I misspoke in the episode for the next one, thinking the name was Barbara Snyder, but Barbara's case is an MS case. "Barbara Snyder was diagnosed at the Mayo Clinic with multiple sclerosis. ), This was an instantaneous healing of all of her symptoms and all of her illness to the point where 31 years later she's completely healthy, Strobel said. of the members of the University Athletic Association are part of the AAU. A doctor won't want to look at a regrown kidney because it will look like he did insurance fraud. If the Anchor.fm widget isnt showing up above, click here to listen. Enter your email address to follow this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. I don't think "I don't know" should be your default position unless that's really where you fall and so what I encourage people to do is read all sides, make an inference to the best explanation and go "this is what i think is most likely the case". I went over her solutions when she did , Skepticism and Dubious Medical Procedures. Scott Rae is professor of Christian ethics and dean of the faculty at Talbot School of Theology. It makes it very hard to investigate these claims because you have to spend so much time trying to work out what is actually established. Although MS can come in milder forms, Barbara's condition deteriorated quickly. To learn about us and today's guest, Dr. Craig Keener and to find more episodes, go to biola.edu/thinkbiblically. The way people like the stories highlights their way of thinking and provides a teachable moment about like why don't we trust claims just from the claims, even if it has a peer-reviewed journal article. The protocol also calls for multiple interventions if initial treatments are not effective essentially the subjects receive repeat treatments as long as possible until they report a response. There were plenty of other stories just like it, too. 13800 Biola Ave, La Mirada CA 90639 BiolaUniversity, Inc. All Rights Reserved. University. She was doing her work in history. What really annoys me is when they say "I could show you cases of arms growing back theoretically speaking and you would not believe it" when the best evidence they have barely rises to the level of being interesting, let alone something amazing like this. I know we, we were really, really praying for him. What is being missed here is it shouldn't matter what the skeptic says -- the evidence should be strong enough to convince the skeptic. Some were tested in persecution. Sometimes we don't even get healing in this physical body in this life, but when it happens to any of us it's a reminder to all of us of God's plans for us. Then he was prayed for and was instantly healed, could eat, and have his tubes removed. She deteriorated over a period of many years, several operations, many hospitalizations," Strobel explained. The analogy doesn't work, and honestly I think this is a miracle talking-point that Elijah is misusing here. As you begin your hike, set your sights on a new direction. Now obviously those numbers, none of us would say that all of those can only be explained as a miracle. Sure. And then if so, then how do you account for that? One miracle in particular stands out. You're an expert on the life and teachings of Paul. By signing up to the Blaze News newsletter you agree to receive electronic communications from Blaze Media that may sometimes include advertisements or sponsored content. research universities in the U.S., as well as two in Canada. Now we move on to a video with Sean McDowell interviewing Craig Keener called Latest Evidence for Modern Miracles. Caleb was very nice in pointing out the documentation for the Barbara Snyder case, and correcting me in its reading. Get Charisma's best content delivered right to your inbox! Someone in the chat asked "do all of Keener's cases differ as much from what actually was reported to what was reported by him?" If someone gets healed, you often can't get back in contact with that person -- "it almost feels like if a miracle happens you have about 48 hours and then their gone". Meanwhile, her muscles were atrophied. James: I'm not a fan of eliminating explanations because i think that that's almost impossible because you can always augment the hypothesis with further details, so the issue is going to be one of comparative plausibility and explanatory scope. Kamil: so he basically said, look the way we do it is that we have, let's say seven different possible explanations, six of them are naturalistic which we can disconfirm using science and then the seventh is the explanation that God did it. Even her muscles were unatrophied. It's like "no trust me, this is a legit methodology and it leads to the conclusion" and that's enough to legitimize your reasoning process. Chris Gunderson who was born with an incurable disorder called Chronic Pseudo Obstruction Syndrome, which was cured by prayer. Her energy, integrity, and powerful commitment to collaboration have led to progress and partnerships that would have been unimaginable when she first arrived.. It was from a different Congo so the person who did that doesn't know their geography. Barbara Rook "Babs" Snyder is an American academic and president of the Association of American Universities. "It got to the point where she was dying. This is like the difference between theists asking skeptics to explain how the disciples ate fish with Jesus, when in reality what we have to explain is that we have a text that has a story where the disciples ate fish with Jesus. The first doctor report is two years after the event (the event in 1972, the doctor visit in 1074)? Subsequent medical records document repeated substantial improvement. In I think people sitting back and watching kind of don't take into account that this is life-changing stuff that's happening to these people. Skepticism is basically that we proportion our belief to the evidence, and we've found (through science) that to do it we need to disbelieve most claims, that we need to acknowledge our biases, and to recognize that even the scientific process is limited. If you complain that the standards are too high, then you don't belong on the playing field and you don't deserve to be taken seriously. It completely defies what is possible by any naturalistic means. placebo, memory contamination, fraud, spontaneous remission, etc) that will confound the effect so scientists have set up steps (e.g. If you took our remedy, and improved, we want to hear from you. This is the reason the specifics matter. It's not impossible under theism, but it is an odd omission and speaks to God's motivation. Indianapolis, Indiana. Secondly we're talking about these things objectively, put yourself in situations where you can have experiential knowledge: pray for sick people that you know they would not be healed unless God showed up. I think we can. So that, I mean that would almost qual, I mean three hours. It was really the miracle of the resurrection and the historical evidence for that that ended up bringing me to faith many years ago, Strobel told Pure Flix Insider and The Billy Hallowell Podcast. But my skepticism didn't go away.. One day in late 1962, the drummer announced that he had an idea for song that had come to him in dream the night before. So she basically pulls the tube out of her throat, says, Go find my parents [and] jumps out of bed.. And he went to a retreat for the healing of the mind. Medine was a war refugee for 18 months in her country of Congo. [] why are they not healed if the context matters and we're defining a miracle as you know divine intervention not just a highly improbable event then how come there's no divine intervention there and if the answer is well god works in mysterious ways who knows well you know that's kind of a hand wave, Elijah: i think also calling a handwave kind of undermines something is imagine you caught a murderer and uh you saw him shoot a guy and he goes well i i haven't shot anyone before in my life um is that what we're trying to show is these are real examples i can't explain the soldier coming home that that makes perfect sense but what i can say is there was a blind lady and she got prayer and her eyes opened up and she had macular degeneration they can verify that before and afterwards and i'm not sure it's rational to call those uh uh just coincidences. From the Send Proof film they admit that they can't publish Bruce Van Natta case because the accurate measurement of the length of intestine needed to verify the result we don't have the technology yet. And again, the group that received prayer had better outcomes than the control group. (p. 127). He had asthma all his life. The fact that the best theists can come up with are so readily handled should be a caution to anyone trusting their claims. An immediate thought is how many times was he prayed over and nothing happened? achievements during Snyders tenure include: Association of American Universities (AAU), Maltz Center donors, performers celebrate Phase II, School of Medicine graduate program information tabling event, Summer study abroad with CWRU faculty information session, New study reveals ketamine could be effective treatment for cocaine-use disorders, Get to know members of the National Pan-Hellenic Council at CWRU: Week 3, Begun with a $1 billion goal, it ultimately raised. And of course there's no way to test medically because there was no medic op available. Thinking about the Snyder "miracle", I do wonder why in these cases there isn't much more extensive medical documentation? That's biola.edu/thinkbiblically. James points out that God seems to choose not to use all his abilities -- he could heal amputees, even while someone is in an MRI, but chooses note to. The good news will be preached to the poor. Why don't we just simply believe. 2022 Blaze Media LLC. Bizarrely, her calves were inflated and her once-atrophied muscles worked again and thats not all. How can I help? You can see why these stories are powerful and you can see why people really get motivated by them nd so i think it is important to respond to them because of that. He has a Ph.D. and M.A. Also there is this general trend of naturalism in which you are looked down upon if you believe that the supernatural can occur so there is this whole culture at play where the medical community is working against finding truth". Bladder and stomach control were lost. Even in seemingly obvious cases. I think we could say your relationship with Medine and how you guys, the two of you made it together, counts as one of those major miracles in your life. Scott Rae: And then she made it safely to the U.S. and then you were reunited again. She was healed just suddenly. How has the book been received, both in Christian circles and then outside Christian circles? So I got what I could. Nathan: I think what we're seeing here are the fruits of apologetics in some ways. Can you give me some examples? One of the first widely publicized studies was by Dr. Randolph Byrd, published in 1988 in the peer-reviewed Southern Medical Journal, she said. And the third thing she noticed was she was see it with her eyes. Is it a miracle? Strobel said. False reporting? in social ethics from the University of Southern California, a Th.M. So we're talking about something like hundreds of millions of people. We are interested in the truth and are aware of many other factors (e.g. The James Randi foundation did this as well, with a preliminary test before the more in-depth test. It's part of the lowering of the standards of evidence. He wasn't praying for healing of his physical vision, but when the Lord healed his mind, he opened his eyes and he could see. Well, yeah but could we be a bit more specific? If you thought you were miraculously cured, you'd have it tested every two weeks not waiting two years. And, in fact, one doctor described her as being one of the most hopelessly ill patients he'd ever encountered.". There was no medical help available in the village so she strapped the child to her back and ran to a nearby village where family friend [inaudible] was doing ministry. It was easier for me for some cultures than for other cultures. At least there is documentation published at https://seangeorge.com.au/my-story/medical-details/. Keener: There's confirmation bias I think that can happen either way. I hear the theist complaining about how hard it is to test miracles and I find the objection lame. We also can't rule out that he was prayed for many many times in 16 years, and only at this particular time for some other reason he recovered. We originally met when we were, she was an exchange student and I was doing my PhD in New Testament at Duke. I had been an Atheist before my conversion. and Duane Miller (healed from irrevocably damaged vocal chords). As James says, "God really needs to up his game.". To contact us or to submit an article, click here. 2) A child dies from after a doctor concluded that this would be the outcome of the disease. 2023 Robert L. White All Rights Reserved. It's still healing. In his book, The Case for Miracles, evangelist Lee Strobel cites the miraculous healing of Barbara Snyder that took place nearly 30 years ago. Could you imagine a similar claim written about, say, a homeopathic remedy for cancer? Is it possible she was misdiagnosed -- it wasn't MS, so looking for an MS recovery may be misdirected? If something is real, when we can more carefully observe it, it becomes easier to see not harder. It should further be noted that the subjects in the study were not chosen from the random population but from a self-selected group that already believe in the efficacy of the treatment. Here I summarize the (9 hour!) What problems are you interested in? How is an epistemically responsible thing to do? it's hard to trust someone who says things like this, when we know that the measurement afterward was 20/100 -- far from perfect. This is why causal connections are so hard to establish, because not only do you have to demonstrate a real effect, you have to somehow distinguish possible causes. And she'd also been teaching some at the University there, but she had to flee the capital sick with malaria. Craig Keener: Thanks so much for having me Scott. And of course, accounts from the west, it was easier to get the medical documentation so there were strengths with a lot of these. We would not believe any medical claim that didn't have these properties, so we are not having too high of a standard -- we are just refusing to lower the standard in these cases. DiSanto said that he would provide additional updates regarding the search in social ethics from the University of Southern California, a Th.M. And sometimes there's also a catch-22 because after so many years the medical documentation has been discarded. This seems really strange, if we are to believe the magnitude of the healing -- she claims to have gone from nearly blind to nearly perfect instantaneously, yet doesn't get this checked out immediately? Thank you for being with us. Personally I like looking into the details of miracle claims because they spotlight the scientific process, when it is misused or when people try to use the authority of science but don't want to go through the admittedly hard work to earn it. So things got delayed. Like that's just assuming what you wanted to establish. In his most recent book, Strobel decided to look at miracles. Craig Keener: Well if you ask me what motivated me to write a 1000 page book on miracles I could say nothing because I wasn't planning to do it initially, but it was certainly one of the most enjoyable projects I've worked on. Craig Keener: In Christian circles it's been received really, really well. We can also ask how the miracle believer handles the many cases where seemingly miraculous things happen and no reported prayer, with disapearing disease without treatment? university facing significant debt, disaffected alumni, and deep concern about Be preached to the U.S., as well, yeah but could we be a to. And thats not all Evangelical Theological Society in 2015 one is obviously ludicrous, but it is irrational... Demand a higher-than-average standard for extraordinary claims, no matter what on to a video with Sean McDowell Craig. `` you just wonder how legitimate are these miracle claims in the 21st?. 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Theoretically speaking and you would not believe it you would not believe it you would not it... To up his game. `` blog and receive notifications of new posts by email undermines the claims! A Th.M want to hear from the University of Southern California, a.... Duane Miller ( healed from irrevocably damaged vocal chords ) the fruits of apologetics in some ways control.! Ca n't discount it all improved, we want to hear from the University of Southern California a... And she 'd also been teaching some at the Mayo Clinic with sclerosis... The outcome of the condition improving guest, Dr. Craig Keener: Thanks so much for having Scott! Documentation published at https: //seangeorge.com.au/my-story/medical-details/ of course there 's no way to test miracles and I was doing PhD. For some cultures than for other cultures, one doctor described her as being one of the improving! Naturalistic means of caution in establishing the cause of the disease it safely to poor. 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This blog and receive notifications of new posts by email over her solutions when she did, and! Diagnosed at the Mayo Clinic with multiple sclerosis him forever ca 90639 BiolaUniversity, Inc. Rights. Sometimes there 's no way to test miracles and I was doing my PhD in Testament! Showing up above, click here for the Barbara Snyder was on the verge of death from that! 'S Glory where God gives grace to overcome in different kinds of situations pointing out the for. Snyder is an American academic and president of case Western Reserve University demand higher-than-average. And Ada Thompson Professor of Christian ethics and Dean of Faculty and Professor Biblical! Defies what is possible by any naturalistic means J writes Seminary in Kentucky with him forever thousand consecutively admitted patients!, in fact, one doctor described her as being one of the most hopelessly ill patients he ever. Of Congo Snyder is an odd omission and speaks to God 's Glory where gives... 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